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Typewriter interview with Pam Grossman

By Austin Kleon · Austin Kleon · · 1 min read

Typewriter interview with Pam Grossman

By Austin Kleon

Hey y’all,

Pam Grossman is a writer, curator, and teacher of magical practice and history. She is the host of the podcast The Witch Wave and the author of Waking the Witch. Today is the release of her brand-new book Magic Maker: The Enchanted Path to Creativity.

This typewriter interview was conducted via the magic of the United States Postal Service. (For a plain-text version with links, see the P.S. below.)

Is there a relationship between creativity and magic? What can people who want to be more creative learn from magic? I have actually come to believe that creativity IS magic, hence my writing a whole dang book about it. For a long time there was a bifurcation between my Witch Self and my Artist Self. But I eventually realized they were two sides of the same coin and relied on many of the same techniques. In both magical practice and creative practice, one becomes a bridge between the realms of the immaterial/invisible and the material/visible. In both you are conjuring force into form, and collaborating with something beyond the small self. In both, you are trafficking in the art of transformation. You are infusing your actions with energy, enchantment, and an intention to be a conduit for a current that can change others -- and change you. Both are a liminal activity wherein you are integrating Surrender/Receptivity with Agency/Craft. Both are a partnership between you and what I call capital-S Spirit.
Do you see yourself as part of an artistic lineage? Who would you place in your creative family tree? Very much so, and I recommend that anyone can invoke their spiritual creative ancestors when they work on a project (or just for general support across the veil.) My Grandma Sonya was a splendid and wildly prolific artist (she studied under Stuart Davis.) I call on her often. I was also blessed to have a teacher in high school who quite literally saved my life, the poet Lois Hirshkowitz. Then there are the MAGIC MAKERS I never knew personally but who I sometimes call into my magic circle as I work: Remedios Varo, Leonora Carringon, Leonor Fini, Agnes Pelton, Gertrude Abercrombie, Lucille Clifton, David Bowie, Jim Henson David Lynch, Diane di Prima, Ella Fitzgerald, Monica Furlong, Helen Adam, Doreen Valiente, Margot Adler, Rachel Pollack...I could go on. And we didn’t even get to the still-alive ones. But I suppose the word “lineage” makes me go all ghosty.
I “smoke” a cigarette pencil when I’m in the studio. Do you perform any silly rituals at work? Well you’re talking to a witch. So I don’t think of ritual as silly per se. Let me revise: I’m a big believer in what I call “reverent irreverence.” In other words, I believe in the inherent silliness of the sacred and the sacredness of the silly. It’s all deeply meaningful and it’s all make-believe. Life is a Mystery so we might as well try our hardest and laugh our loudest at how ridiculous and splendid and stupefying the whole thing is. My new book is all about how we can use various rituals and magical techniques to expand our creativity. But you do not have to believe in them literally if that turns you off. I use a lot of my witchcraft practice in my creative practice e.g. casting circle before I sit down to write, lighting candles, having a project altar... I find it massively helpful and very very fun.
Describe your perfect day in Brooklyn. My ideal Brooklyn day is a Saturday or Sunday in early fall with a coooool breeze andgolden light. I walk to Sofreh Cafe and get a cardamom rose donut and some Persian tea, and I am reading an excellent book. Then I wander around the hood, stopping in my local bookshops (shout out to Community Bookstore and Troubled Sleep Books). Also Leroy’s Place which my pal owns and which feels like Peewee’s Playhouse. I have lived in the same neighborhood for 20 years, so inevitably I will run into lovely pals and neighbors as I wander. Eventually I will meet up with my husband at the Prospect Park Zoo, and he willnarrate about the animals’ secret interior lives (one of my favorite things he does. He is a playwright so he is very good at backstory and dramatic intrigue.) Then we meet up with pals for an early dinner and a Green-Wood Cemetery walk at dusk. Then home to watch a bingey show or opulent arthouse movie. We order in sushi (oh wait we had dinner already. But this is a perfect day so that tracks.)
Do you have any hobbies? Do you collect anything? My latest hobby is paper marbling. I do suminagashi, which is much easier/lazier/cheaper than Ebru so I can do it right at our kitchen table. Suminagashi tends to look more loose and bubbly and psychedelic thanEbru but I do adore the old-school look of feathery forms like you see inside crumbling romantic dusty books so maybe one day I will learn. I collect Yaddle figurines and trading cards (she is kind of a female Yoda) but they barely made any so my collection might be complete? I am also OBSESSED with Kirimi-chan, who is a non-binary Sanrio character with a giant salmon filet head and tiiiiiiny body, so I am starting to collect Kirimi merch too. Also my matron goddess is Artemis, so LOTS of Artemisian figures and deer populate our home.
What do you do for exercise? Do you detect any emotional, spiritual, or creative benefits? Well as many ladies in their middle age will tell you, we are supposed to do weight training to combat our muscles from turning into sacs of powder and ash, so I have begrudgingly begun working with a trainer once a week. I then do some of the workouts I’m assigned to on other days of the week. I have tried bringing my magical self to these workouts, offering them to the goddess of wellness, Hygeia. I have tried doing reps of AIR FIRE WATER EARTH SPIRIT instead of counting one two three four five etc. I have tried listening to sacred music as I lift, and focusing on making my body a strong, sacred vessel. You know what? I still fucking hate it. BUT. I do love the presence, clarity, and vitality it seems to amplify in my life overall. And it does seem to help my anxiety. All of the above is great for keeping Creative Force flowing.
What’s your relationship to music? Do you sing or play an instrument? Is there a song that makes you happy? Music is one of my deepest loves. I was an obsessive mix tape maker and now I am an obsessive playlist curator (something we share, Austin Kleon), and I never understand people who stop listening to new-to-them music as they age. I’m 44 and few things give me more pleasure than falling in love with a song or artist I have never heard before. My dad is a musician (clarinet & sax) and my mom is an avid music lover too, so I was raised with a deep appreciation for music across genre. I do sing a bit and used to play a smidge of guitar and piano and write songs. I tried to start a band in my 20s but had some sketchy experiences with a couple dudes so I got a bit... turned off by the scene I guess you could say? But one of my greatest wishes is to get back to it now that I’m older and fiercer/softer in equal measure.
We both started a blog around the same time (2005, if I’m not mistaken?) What did blogging teach you, what do you miss about it, and is there a medium that you think is as fun and/or exciting as early blogs? Yes, 2005. I actually just learned that the platform my blog, Phantasmaphile, was on is shutting down, so I had to export it before it all disappeared into the aether forever. 20 years all shrunk down into an itty bitty .txt file: HUMBLING. (Though to be fair I was VERY infrequent about posting over there for the last several years.) Phantasmaphile was where I first learned to be brave and unapologetic about sharing my love of art, magic, and occulture out in the open. It’s where I first learned to approach strangers I admire for an interview. It’s where I first learned that you can build community based on your own peculiar passions - and that some of those kindred weirdos could go on to becomecollaborators and/or friends. I miss everything about it, but I do think podcasts scratch some of that itch as I’ve discovered through making The Witch Wave and listening to many others.
John Waters says he has “youth spies” that keep him up-to-date on culture. Do you have any youth spies? My husband and I have chosen not to have children (at least not in this lifetime as I like to say.) We have two cats named Monday and Birthday, but they can’t be bothered to keep up with the trends. However we are very fortunate to have friends of all ages, and many of those friends have kids who happily share. But I gotta say, I’m VERY into my “crone spies” who not only have great wisdom and advice to bestow, but also have the coolest fucking taste.
What’s a question you wish people asked you more often? Hmmmmmmm. My ego sometimes wishes that interviewers would sometimes ask me about the technical aspects of my work. For example, I used to edit every aspect of my podcast, and I still do a LOT of that. I also enjoy being asked about the business aspects of being a self-employed creative person, believe it or not. It’s a lot to manage and I have made plenty of mistakes but I’m proud to have pivoted from having a corporate job for fourteen years to now doing what I love full time. I also love talking about comedy (one of my favorite chapters in my new book is called “The Gift of Play”), and I could talk about SNL and Del Close and stand-up all day. And I love when people ask me to make lists. About anything to be honest but especially about favorite things/recommendations cause I love sharing my enthusiasms.

Big thanks to Pam for being the 12th participant in this series of typewriter interviews!

Go out today and get a copy of Magic Maker: The Enchanted Path to Creativity wherever books are sold.

xoxo,

Austin

P.S. Here’s a playlist of songs that make Pam happy:

And here’s a full transcription of the interview with links:

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